Bush...

[zulu]

Now that no WMD have been found in Iraq after all, and there was clearly not threat and the solid evidence was clearly lies - when will Bush be tried for war crimes?

[Apatai]

I'm sure you've never worked in the middle east nor have dealt with the mentality of extreme Islam, have you?

Matter of fact Iran has WMDs varieties of them. Just because they are not pontificating their discoveries over the news does not mean they are not there and were not a threat.

I suppose all the mass murders mean nothing too you as well?

Do you realise that Saddam and his sons killed more people in the past 2 decades than anyone has since WW2?

I know that you left wing prolific and 'O' so educated and aware group of mongerers are just chomping at the bit to allow more Saddam's to rule and base their creed of human disaster upon the world-at-large.

Try going to work in the middle east for lets say 6 months and you'll come to see the hatred not only against westerners, but against anyone who wants a fair shake at life and democracy.

Saudi is no different. As, today their FM lied through his teeth about everything Saudi is doing to control the proliferation of terror. Saudi has done nothing. His statements of "virtually stopping" all funding by organizations in their country says enough. It's either you stopped it or you didn't stop it. There is no "virtually" about it.

One must listen closely to the words spoken by these types of people. There ability to cover, overwrite, and abuse the legitimacy of the truth is quite evident.

As, we sit here watching the past weeks bombings in Saudi and await more in the coming days Saudi still has not upped the ante to curtail these Islamic fundamentalists.

Saudi's clerics teach hatred in their religious mosques, they twist the value of the actual words from the Q'uran as many right wing christians do. This seed of hate is then fed into the family structure where the finances are bound for life to giving up a life that began innocent and then shapped into a lethal weapon as a terrorist.

Do you really think a "normal", honorable, forgiving, human would send their children, sons, into a role of becoming the devil of death?

The autrocities in Iraq, Syria, Saudi, Yemen, Lybia, and other countries out way the factors that concern finding WMDs. The people alone are a threat to viable safety in the world.

Try getting an education before resiting that the "Bush" administration should be held as war criminals. We should be glad that someone in our government had the balls to clean up the mess WE helped create by allowind such and evil to exist for so many decades.

"War is always the evil ends to an evil beginning. Life is so fragile yet, we follow the paths that take great strength and fortitude to overcome. Lower the Flag, bow our hearts, and pray for all those who must endure the hardships brought upon many by just a few. Come we may to the point to let our blood run true, we must never forget who we are as we salute the red, white, and blue!" -
by A. B. Patai

[Export]

Sir-

I have read your post and do not entirely agree, nor disagree. However, I would like to relate some of my thoughts on the subject.

I am somewhat suspect of your use of the word 'Westerners.' In all the demonstrations I have seen in various media outlets, the demonstrators were only hostile towards three countries: Israel, but mainly the USA and the UK. If the Arab world is hostile to the 'Western' world, why are they not also burning the flags of such countries as perhaps Portugal, Luxembourg, Ireland, South Africa, Canada, or perhaps Switzerland? Please, sir, the Western world is much larger than just America!

I also notice you bring up Middle Eastern hatred of '...anyone who wants a fair shake at life and democracy.' Can you blame them? In America the poor seem to be getting poorer, and the last election hardly seemed very 'democratic!' It would appear to me that the best way to eliminate this hatred may be to get some American fingers out of a Middle Eastern pie. As for WMD, perhaps America could set an example and get rid of it's own WMD first.

I would also like some substantiation of Mr Hussein and family killing more people in the past 2 decades than anyone else has since WWII. Could you back this up with hard facts? If you can I'd be appreciative. As a comparison, perhaps you could include the number of people killed by Americans in the past 20 years, including other Americans?

However, I'm not sure I can agree if Mr Bush should be tried for War Crimes. America and Britain went into war alone, without the approval of the United Nations. So based the 'altercation' in Afganistan a while back, Mr Bush should be dealt with as an 'Unlawful Combattant.'

[Apatai]

The UN has allowed the killing of so many, more than Hussien, more than Hitler, more than as you put it "America". (America has not killed anyone without just cause!) What about all the mass murders in Africa, countries who have no commodities, countries who are dwelling in their own communistic dictatorships. Due to these countries having no financial prosperity, no way to pay off the UN Assembly, they will be allowed to waller in their mess. The UN does nothing as does the rest of the World. I wouldn't trust the UN as far as you could spit. They've done more damage than anyone to the PEACE in the World-at-Large!!!!

Saddam, try going to all the literature written by Amnesty International about the flagrant selfish murders that Saddam and his henchmen have committed.

WMDs, America does NOT threaten the world with their weapons. Such as N. Korea, Iraq (used them on their own people)!!!!

You seem to not see facts clearly nor do you even look at both sides of the picture.

The Middle East HATES Westerners (American's)! Saudi is one of the biggest culprits out there. I lived over there long enough to understand the mentality within these countries.

As far as England stepping in during the war, GREAT! However, England has also allowed so many terrorists to reside knowingly on their soil and has done nothing about it, as France has.

I suppose America had to be awakened by the 9-11 incident to realize we to have chosen to allow filth into our country, terrorists!

American's, the poor, for the most part you need to understand America. The poor, 60% of them choose to be in that situation! They choose to not complete their education, the drug traffic here has a grip on so many, but one chooses to use drugs. Drugs are not capable of holding a weapon to your head and telling you to snort, smoke, drink, and then do it again, and again. America, does allow this type of situation to exist. America, has the worst laws about commanding you to get an education as to at least make sure you have a basis to make yourself financially sound in your future.

You see, to me anyone who lives on Welfare, unless they are ill, disabled, mentally unstable to support themselves is choosing to be poor. Get an Eduction foremost, get yourself away from the drug culture, and most of all never give up strive to be the best you can be and all will prosper. There are jobs out there all you have to do is keep trying.

I will supply you more data than you asked for, but as a working stiff I must get to work.

Try to see through the angst!

A jewish, gay, female, republican!

apatai:cool:

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Miss-

I must partially agree with you in regards to the United Nations. They have not been as effective as they could have been in the past in preventing untold deaths throughout the world. Definitely, they could have used their muscle to help more people. However, from my point of view, their are an asset to the world. I think that the 6 billion people on the planet need an international forum, such as the UN, where they can gather and challenge other on their actions, or be challenged themselves. If I had the wherewithall to 'fix' the organisation, believe me I would.

I would like to make a point about America's WMD. Perhaps America doesn't threaten the world with it's weapons, but it does threaten a few. The new American Missile Defence System does that exactly and has already threatened one country: Canada. In order to protect our sovereignty, we do not want it built in Canada (although it would provide extra warning to America.) America has said that if it is not built in Canada they will be 'forced' to shoot down any rogue missiles over Canadian territory and cities (reference: Toronto Globe and Mail.) Hard not to feel threatened when there exists the possibility of missiles exploding over your head! Thus, a perfect example of how America forces change in another country with the threat of weapons of mass destruction falling from the sky.

I must agree with your opinion on drugs. I have known enough people to know that drugs indeed do not hold a weapon to your head, drugs ARE the weapon. There is no benefit to illicit drugs that make them worth using, other than the short-term high that is clearly not worth the addiction.

As one point regarding America's poor: If America truly wanted to end domestic poverty it certainly could, but chooses not to. It is the responsability of the rich and middle-classes to end poverty, not the poor. This is where social programmes come in: subsidized daycare so the single mother-of-two can work as a waitress a few days a week and save some money; a drug & alcohol treatment programme for the junkie that wants to quit but can't; QUALITY apartment buildings with rent-to-own programmes for low-income earners. These are programmes that work, if only they are properly funded. Instead America has a society where the only thing people seem to care about is who has the bigger wallet. Money is the true God in America! People don't matter unless it's yourself, and would balk at the prospect of paying $1/hour, a mere $40/week, to help properly fund a social programme. It's everybody's problem.

I would like to make a comment regarding your last post. Miss, I don't know why you wrote the last line in your post as you did. Perhaps it's different where you are, but here in my experience it doesn't matter what your religion is, who you're sleeping with, or your gender or political persuasion. I don't see how any of those things should change the validity of your opinions. You remain the same valuable and important member of the human race that you've always been.

Miss, you are skilled with your words. It is much appreciated!

[randywlpn]

President Bush won election in a most questionable manner.
I have always been apolitical in my adult life but am now begining
to have doubts about the current administration and it´s policies.
I grew up in a time that was taught that the United Nations was a good, and needed institution. I think that the UN has grown large enough to the point that its prescence is an entity that tries to supercede legintament goverments across the world. Including the United States.
Although the war in Iraq was questionable by most all sentinent people, I wonder at times what Mr. Bush´s true motives were. Was he and staff motivated by genuine American
patriotism or was the UN in someway a subtle contributor to the malay. Being post-apolitical I am in the process of learning about government and forming opinions.
Please reply at Superman@pldi.net
Yhank you, Randy

[zulu]

Apatai, Export and randywlpn,

Thank- you for your replies to my post. It definately opened my eyes very much.

Apatai, I don't think that anyone is trying to defend Saddam or deny the fact that he is a tyrant who has committed some terrible atrocities.

I have never been to the Middle-East, and don't deny the fact that there is a putrid hatred of the West (America) within those nations. You seem to imply in your first post that due to this massive amount of hostility toward America, that maybe war is somehow justified.

Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

However I fail to see how invading a neighbouring country will in any way serve to do anything except augment the Middle East's detestation of America?

In your second post you raise the very relevant and I feel often neglected issue of the mess that is specifically Central Africa at the moment. If America is so keen to rid Iraq of a terrible man such as Saddam, then why have they not been just as keen to rid African states of their ruthless, corrupt dictators. In this context Sierra Leone is not the only place in need of America's help.
As you put it the UN has been no good in Central Africa, so if it seems that America is doing the job that you feel the UN should be doing Iraq - what is stopping Bush from helping out in in Africa?

America's WMD, the mere fact that America posseses them is a threat whether they advertise this fact or not. It's called deterence.

Saddam's murders, he was clearly a source of much concern for Amnesty Int. Before you criticise him however, I ask you to acknowledge the fact that with the prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba - America has breached 15 articles of the Third Geneva Convention. Plenty of material for Amnesty Int. to write about there.

As regards to America's problem with the poor. Why has Bush lowered taxes for earners in the higher income range? Surely this money could have been used very effectively in increased welfare programs. I am not claiming to be very clued up on the US's domestic policy - an explanation to this fact I feel would be quite relevant. For myself at least.

Lastly I do not think that the UN is irrelevant. The fact that there exists a forum for world leaders to negotaite and discuss world issues is a miracle in itself, and the American presidents who were so influential in setting up firstly the League of Nations and secondly the United Nations, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt should be applauded. Yet is it not ironic that it is now an American president who is negating the UN's existence by acting without it's consent.

No matter how much of a tyrant Saddam Hussein was, violating another nations sovereignty is very sensitive indeed. It opens up a pandora's box of possibilities that other less 'civilised' nations might use as justifications for invasions to further their own personal gains. That is why a body such as the UN should be respected, and it's importance never underestimated.

Don't forget that the US still claims membership of the UN. Under the UN charter two reason justify war. 1) Individual or collective self defence and 2) enforcement of collective sanctions.
I leave it to you to decide whether this makes the US led invasion of Iraq legal or not.

I look forward to the replies...

regards to all
zulu

[Export]

Howdy folks!

In case anyone missed it, we're well into June now and STILL no Weapons of Mass Destruction have been found in Iraq. As the song goes "Time is on my side..."

We're weeks after the war now, 10 June, and Bush is oddly silent on the issue. Shall we wait a few more weeks and see if Bush changes the definition of "WMD"? I'm sure that there's some way out of it, and Bush and his cronies are the ones to find it. After all, the mightyest nation on Earth surely has the chutzpah to come up with a simple EXCUSE, right?

Wrong, folks. This is exactly the time to keep a very close eye on our leaders. I can't exactly explain it, but for the past little while, whenever I hear of Bush or see him on television, I can't help but think that somewhere in America, in some nameless government building, there sits a man similar to Winston Smith.

George Orwell had it penned!

[Toxic]

I just want to answer the question about when Bush is going to be tried for war crimes. Bush will be tried for war crimes the day you all think you can come and get him. Or the day someone makes a suprise arrest on him in their country. ( ohh yea the U.S. considers that an act of war demandind fast millitary response. ) So in other words he will never be tried. Well i take that back, they may try him in some court in Europe, but we will just laugh.

[flowerchild]

Consider this for a moment. Number one, the only reason a war was enstalled in Iraq was because we are obviously not making any progress in Afghanastan and we would not want the price of oil to go up now would we?
Number two, Bush is simply carrying through with his Daddy's precious war mentality. Hey, to each his own, but this is why I would Never fight for this country. When I can elect whom I choose from a random public, when I can visibly see rewards of what we are doing with all of this fighting, and when I can have pride in my neighbor in knowing that those who have more are willing to share, then I will think about it. I mean at least some of the morals my young son learns everyday in school would be lovely.
This country is so political it's impossible to even remain intact with common sense. Certainly we are not taking care of the people who destroyed the twin towers, minus a few arrests of people no one has ever heard of who are somehow "connected".
I will be impressed when I see Osama paying for the lives he destroyed. Nothing short of that will have my support whether it can be politically justified or not.

[flowerchild]

While you are on a role about people needing education, why don't you get educated about the purpose of this board, which is not to advertise, as you seem to do a bit of. Not too fond of the glass house analogy, I am sure.

[Vash]

Bush will never be tried for war crimes (even though he should) because he is a rich, white guy that runs our government.

The reason people in the middle east hate us is
1) We are always sticking our big noses into other peoples business.
2) We are pro-Israel
3) We steal all the oil from THEIR land.
4) There are many people starving and our rich country does nothing to help them.

Also, acts of terrorism have been committed all over the world but most Americans are extremely ignorant to anything that goes on outside its borders. This is mainly because the media is controlled be 4 or 5 people that make more money by doing what the government tells them.

About Iraq killing the most people since WWII, America has killed

at least 2 million in Korea
another 1 million in Vietnam
and a lot more in small operations
These were all mostly civilians

Like zulu said just having WMD is a threat, what if there was an accident? (which has happened before but luckly the bombs did not go off)
If America disarmed then maybe people would stop thinking of us as ignorant hypocrites, when we go to war to take someone elses WMD (which weren't there in the first place)

Also, who was the first country to use WMD (America on Japan)
Acts of terrorism are supposed to be actions taken against civilians. The only difference with america is that it says that it is targeting military targets and "accidentally" hits civilians and terrorists openly admit targeting civilians.

"The media are a pitiful lot. They don't give us any history, they don't give us any analysis, they don't tell us anything. They don't raise the most basic questions: Who has the most weapons of mass destruction in the world by far? Who has used weapons of mass destruction more than any other nation? Who has killed more people in this world with weapons of mass destruction than any other nation? The answer: the United States."
Howard Zinn

In the vietnam war many villages with women and children in them were bombed with napalm. If this was not an act of terrorism then i don't know what is.

"They made a wasteland and called it peace."
Tacitus, Roman historian

With the billions of dollars spent on this war we could have provided health care for millions of americans without it and we could have fed the poor with billions of dollars left over.

" Does it sound outrageous to you that military spending for fiscal year 2000 will be almost $290 billion and all other domestic discretionary spending, such as education, job training, housing, Amtrak, medical research, environment, Head Start and many other worthwhile programs will total $246 billion, the biggest disparity in modern times ? "
Dale Bumpers, former US Senator and recent Director of the Center for Defense Information

America spends spends more money on WMD and "national defense" then it spends on everything else combined.

[Toxic]

Just wanted to answer all the anti American talk by saying I'm proud to be an American. As the old saying goes if you dont love it leave it, you have that right here. Unlike a lot of other countries. You have the right to run your mouth, but i have the right not to like it also. For all you people from other countries, you all seem to foreget every major war in history was started by the cry baby Europeans or Rome but they pretty much were that same. Well we had the cival war, but we were fighting ourself over something youll never understand and most people here have foregotten now. Most think it was over slavery, thats just crazy. Lincoln freed the slaves in the south only, the north had slave states for 25 more years. Plus Lincoln never tried to free them untill 2 years after the war had begun. The war was over taxes, anyway i wish it was over slavery, because it was wrong. There is the dirt on America, lets talk other wars now? I wont bring up the millions killed over the thousands of years before we were a country, just the ones since then.----- American Revolution - we were attacked by England and ( people foreget Germany ) and sent them packing. The French and Indian War, the French invaded us ( but as still today couldnt fight ) so we actually crushed them. The war of 1812, we were invaded through Canada and by Sea by the English, Germans, French, and Canadians, and all it took to send all of you running was a group of hillbillies mostly from Kentucky, led by a man by the name of George Rogers Clark ( who were out numbered over 50 to 1 ) to send Alexander Hamilton and the others back to where they came from. The Spanish American War - we were invaded by Spain and sent them packing with their heads hung low. The Mexican American War we were invaded by Mexico and yet again Spain but the same results, we crushed them. Then the Texans needed some help showing Santa Anta they ment buisness so a few famous men by the names of Col. Davey Crockett ( Tennessee ) Col. Jim Bowie ( Kentucky ) and Travis- South Carolina held them off to give Gen. Sam Houston time for his plan to work. Even though they were offered the chance to surender many times they all ( ALL ) fought to the death!! and Sam Houstons plan worked and we crushed them to. World War One - started by Europe, finished by America. We were laughed at for even entering the war but still crushed you. World War 2 Europe started once again and once again we saved you!!!! We stayed out of the war forever talking peace, but once we were attacked at Pearl Harbor we entered and as i have said so many times we crushed you!!! I have to go, so stay tuned for your history lesson on the next wars Vietnam being one of the few. By the way the Brittish first invaded Vietnam and got their butts kicked for 30 years then just up and quit, leaving the french holding the bag. The French begged us for help from day one, then gave up ( as always ) so we tried t finish it. I left the Korean War out, i know i wasnt even planning on talking about Vietnam yet but got to thinking about it and just wanted to say that. Either way ill finish when i have more time. Later people, hope i have more time to argue soon.

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Toxic - hey man, where are you coming up with these comments? I find some of them to be totally baseless and you seem to selectively omit certain facts that, I think, are deliberately misleading!

Just some quick points -

The American Revolution

This event was not caused by England attacking America: it was the American colonies proclaiming independence. America caused the war by herself. (As an aside, the Americans were swiftly losing the war until, on the glorious day of February 6th, 1778, noneother than France joined the Revolution to fight their old enemy, the English. Ever wonder why America drives on the right-hand side of the road and not the left-hand side, as most other former British colonies around the world? Because her military was trained by the French military to do so. Canada did not make the change to the 'right' side of the road until the invention of the automobile and sufficient cross-border traffic made it a sensible choice.)

The War of 1812

Now, this is the fun one. Napoleon Bonaparte established a dictatorship in France in 1799 and began a series of conflicts with England. In this conflict, America remained neutral. As time wore on, England and France took this conflict to North America and disrupted eachothers' trade. In 1807, the US Congress passed a typically boneheaded act called the EMBARGO ACT. This restricted American vessels to port and quickly caused a depression in America due to lack of trade. Smuggling between America and Canada (which was not subject to the Embargo Act) increased hundredfold. In an effort to stop the smuggling, the English increased restraints on America. America declared war on England on June 18, 1812, with the goal of getting the English out of North America and controlling the entire continent, a precursor to Manifest Destiny. A favorite day in that war was December 10, 1813, when Canadian forces invaded Washington, DC, and burned down the White House. (I see you've rebuilt it! It's very nice!) Anyways, that war drew to a close with the Treaty of Ghent in 1812, and the Canada and America kept their pre-war territories. America didn't win that war, neither did Canada.

Listen, ah, I can keep going on here but I think I've proved my point. I'd like to see what else you've got to say here, Toxic, but next time come prepared instead of just blowing hot air out of your mouth! Deal?

p.s. - You are totally wrong about the attack on Pearl Harbour. Japan didn't just wake up one morning and decide to send some planes out on a bombing run to Hawaii. America was the aggressor, having put Japan behind a naval blockade. Japan had no choice but to attack. (Sound somewhat familiar? Watch North Korea over the next few months! Duck and cover!)

[Toxic]

Man i dont have time to argure right now, but i will on this one. You're crazy, man you say everything we have done in history is wrong, if thats so then why are we the richest,strongest country in the world. Not bragging just the truth here. Plus go on and admit it to your self canada has been made up of rejects from America since day one. Plus i dont even have a problem with Canada im just tierd of you all always bashing the U.S. We send more money and men to help other people every year no matter what is wrong then anyone else in the world. Here is the thing to, we dont send them, Americans volunteer to go help for free!!! I mean nothing we ever do will ever be good enough for you all so why should we even try? Most dont think about that, but its the truth. The Baby Boomer Generation is the last one left who even likes anyonne else. The next 2 generations are taking over now, im not talking about who is better here. im just saying the truth, almost no-one cares anything about what any other country thinks other then this one, and its not because they think other people or places are bad its because they have all grown up being crapped on no matter what we do here and no one wants to hear it anymore. I know thats not the most mature way, but thats they way it is. My mothers generation everyone one here loved Canada, now no one can stand it. Take that however you want, i dont have time for one of the fact finding war argument ordeals lol later

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Pretty emotional-sounding speech you got going there! I think you got it absolutely right when you wrote "I mean nothing we ever do will ever be good enough for you all so why should we even try?"

That's the most itelligent thing I've ever seen you write! You shouldn't even try! Has it never crossed America's collective mind that if America stopped messing with the world, the world would stop messing with America?

America, would you just please leave the world alone! If you keep messing with it the way you have been doing, you're going to break it!

The world has turned on you much the same way the world turned on the Roman Empire. We don't like the way you are doing things. You represent yourselves as some kind of 'World Policeman' and, to be perfectly honest, you aren't very good at it. You couldn't understand how it was even remotely possible that someone, someone American(!), would park a van packed with fertilizer in front of a Federal Building, or why a small group of people would want to fly airplanes into skyscrapers. Are you blind? Once again, America, just leave the world alone and he world will leave you alone.

[coach]

1

[Vash]

Toxic, shouldn't we send more money and men if we are "the richest, strongest country in the world?" Even though we send more money it is mostly raised by charities and church groups who have absolutely nothing to do with our government. All those people that go freely are from these charities. Most people in the middle east hate our government which then leads to hatred of all americans. Plus percentage wise we send a lot less money than a lot of countries.

[coach]

If they want to be left alone should we not send grain and food to other counties nor money or aide in disasters? And lets not forget the big question what about all the money we have leant these countries? Should we call our markers and demand they pay us back instead of forgiving the loans? We still havent been paid back from monies given in aid and men from WWII.

[pb]

So export, do you have no poor or hungry in your country?

We have all the things you suggest helping the poor. Our poorest and hungriest are better off then any in the third world countries.

Even in the Bible it mentions that we will never be able to get rid of all the poor. It is sort of a relative term, we were considered poor because of a job lost and the very low income we were receiving. We refused to accept food stamps even though we qualified. We had a mindset that we did not want to get into the welfare system, that we could pull ourselves up out of it.

Many of our poor are because they have been raised in the welfare system and can not break out of that cycle.

Many are homeless because they choose and many are homeless because of mental health. This last group really needs to be hospitalized and I thiunk this is where we fall short.

[coach]

Yes we do have poor and homeless but we can and should take care of our own first. If the rest of the world wants to be left alone then thats what we should do. But really leave them alone no help at all ever. We also have oil reserves that can supply our country without outside help if needed.

[Export]

I know we have poor people here in Canada, but it's been a heck of a long time since I've heard of someone actually dying of hunger here! I'm not saying there aren't hungry people about, but we aren't savages. If someone is hungry they CAN get a meal somewhere, and cheap too!

I'm a little confused by how our poor and hungry are 'better off then any in the thrid world countries'? How does poverty or hunger differ depending on your location?

You know, your comment that 'Even in the Bible it mentions that we will never be able to get rid of all the poor.' scares me. If millions of Christians around the world actually believe that then we're in big trouble! Don't allow yourself to be misled by a centuries-old book that limits you in any way. Have some optimism, while poverty hasn't been eliminated everywhere, it has been eliminated in some places. It can be done and don't ever think that it can't.

[pb]

Export our poor do not die from hunger and treatable diseases.

We have immunization for all people that protect them from diseases that kill and cripple. We have clean water. We have hospitals accept all that enter their doors.

Each life is valued, whether they belong to a certain "tribe" or not. Women are given equal treatment. Education is given to all.

So our poor are better off than those in third world countries.